Tag Archives: strategy

Making Research in Vet School Work For You

The Vetducator: Stand back I'm going to try science.
Credit xkcd.

Now that you’re a vet student, you have it made.  You’ve achieved your life-long goal and just have to graduate.  But what if there’s something more? What if you want to do post-grad education, or work in public health, or contribute to society other than taking care of dogs, cats, and horses?  Maybe there is the opportunity to do research.

Conducting research during vet school opens a lot of doors.  You get to engage in scientific inquiry which hopefully has some ultimate effect on a patient’s outcome or quality of life.  You get to work directly with a faculty member who is (hopefully) interested in mentoring you. You get to build your CV and demonstrate to future programs that you are dedicated, responsible and focused.

Getting involved in research during vet school can be surprisingly challenging.  Undergraduate students often have whole offices dedicated to their success. For vet students, you can do a fellowship or volunteer your time.

A summer fellowship is often supported by various industry groups and providing a stipend.  A summer fellowship is a good first step, but it is unlikely you will finish a project in that amount of time. You may be a cog in the wheel of benchtop research, or you may start your own research project. If you want to continue to be a part of the project, you will likely have to volunteer once the summer is over.

Volunteering your time is also an option.  You may seek out a mentor who is doing something interesting or a mentor may announce that they are looking for students to help with research.

No matter how you get involved, before you start, you should talk openly with your potential mentor to make sure you are a good fit.  The experience needs to be positive for you and for your mentor, otherwise ill feelings can creep in.  First, you need to determine what you want out of doing research:


Experience.  You just want to try research to see if it is something that may engage you.  This is great- tell your prospective mentor(s) this. You don’t need to commit to what you want to do for the rest of your life at this point.

Relationships.  Doing research often puts you in closer contact with a faculty member than in the normal course of vet school.  You often work closely with them and meet with them regularly. You now have a mentor- you can ask them for advice, for help with letters of application and CVs, and for letters of reference.  Mentors are incredibly important in your career, and identifying and working with one through research can be a strong bond.

CV Building.  If you intend to go on to further education after graduation, research may bump your application slightly.  Be aware that almost every serious applicant I have reviewed for internships has some research experience. Just engaging in research doesn’t do much to set your CV apart.  Having a paper which is submitted for publication or, even better, accepted for publication is more remarkable. If you are buried in an author list, that is not particularly memorable.  If you are the first author on a peer-reviewed publication, evaluators may take notice. In general, having research experience and publications in your internship application won’t make or break it, but it may give you a slight edge.  If you intend to pursue a graduate degree, demonstrating some interest and experience with research during vet school is key.

An example of an improved CV from vet school research.

Second, you need to kick ass doing research.  If you want to secure a positive recommendation, just doing what you are asked/told is not enough.  You need to identify opportunities to do more. Answer emails promptly. Complete tasks eagerly and rapidly.  Many vet students do research. If you want to excel, you have to stand out. Follow a project through to the end or, if you absolutely hate what you’re doing, be clear and upfront with your faculty mentor.

Finally, make use of the resources you developed with this experience.  Don’t hesitate to ask your faculty research supervisor for help with applications.  If possible, make progress on a publication which has your name on it. The world helps those who help themselves.  Don’t just expect everything on a silver platter because you helped with a research project. Make use of the skills and connections you made.

Research during vet school can be rewarding and illuminating.  If you have the slightest inkling that you may want to do something other than primary care medical practice, dip your toe into research.  You may find out something about yourself.

Should you do a Residency?

The Vetducator - deciding on doing a residency.
Photo by Paola Chaaya on Unsplash

The residency is the path to specialization.  There are a handful of veterinary specialties you can earn without a residency, but, for the vast majority, a 2-4 year residency is the only path to specialization.  So, really, the question of doing a residency is: Should you be a specialist? Obviously this is a question you need to answer for yourself, but here are some considerations which may help.

Timing.  There are many paths to being a specialist, but the most common is straight from vet school to residency (pathology, lab animal medicine specialties), or from internship to residency (for most others).  Some people may be tempted to go into practice first, and then go to a residency. While possible (and even successful for some specialties- like radiology), read the post about taking time off before deciding on this path- it will be harder than a more traditional path.

Salary.  Most, but not all, specialists make more, sometimes considerably more, than general practitioners.  If you have chronic health issues or family obligations, you may be able to take care of them more easily as a specialist.  Otherwise, the salary shouldn’t factor into your decision-making.

Academia.  Although some universities are figuring out they should hire general practice vets to train general practice-bound students, the vast, vast majority of faculty are still specialists.  If you want to go into academic veterinary medicine, becoming a specialist is really your best bet. And academia is pretty great!

Expertise.  In a study we did interviewing senior veterinary students, those interested in specializing expressed the desire to be considered experts and sought after for their knowledge.  As a general practitioner, you become more knowledgeable and proficient in a wide variety of domains. As a specialist, you become an expert in a single field. Both can be intellectually rewarding, but if you want the social status that comes with being The Expert, becoming a specialist is an easy path to that regard.

Time.  Do you want to spend 2-4 more years of your life on your education?  Or do you need to get on with things? This depends on your own life situation, probably largely determined by your family life.  Along with this is the reduced income you will have as a resident relative to entering general practice. This is only relevant during the residency, though, as your salary will be much higher once you are done.

Flexibility.  As a specialist, there will be fewer places in the country you can work.  General practitioners are needed even in very small towns, but Americus, GA, does not need a board-certified veterinary surgeon.  In general, as a specialist, you will work at a university or in a private practice in at least a small city.

Dedication.  As a resident you will work long hours for little thanks and little pay.  Can you suffer through that? Are you OK being treated as a minion for more time in your life?  It is physically and psychologically tiring, so you have to be dedicated to the pursuit or you will be miserable.

There are a lot of great reasons to do a residency, but it is not without cost, and it is absolutely not for everyone.  Talk to your friends, your family, and your mentors. It’s a difficult, but important, decision.

What I Wish I Had Known as a Student Applying for Internships

The Vetducator - Rock lines path symbolizing internship path.

I only applied to 11 internships, 9 of which were academic.  My letter and CV were not particularly good, but I was very assertive on clinics, did a good job, and got good letters of recommendation.  I didn’t participate in clubs or do any substantive research during vet school. If I applied nowadays, it is unlikely I would have gotten any internship, much less a good one.  I want to help you avoid my mistakes by giving you this advice:

Apply everywhere.  I have no idea why I limited the scope of where I applied.  I suppose I had some high-minded ideal of only wanting to go to places on the west coast.  Don’t do this. Apply wherever you think you could be happy for a year. Which is anywhere.  Even the frozen north or broiling south.

Polish your materials.  You need to reach out to your mentors and have them provide advice and perspective on your application.  Almost no one writes a good letter or CV the first time around without input. Seek advice constantly from those who know better.  If for some reason you don’t have mentors, reach out to me.

Don’t try to game the match.  I thought I knew how the match worked and ranked institutions according to where I thought I would get matched, rather than where I wanted to go.  This reflects a fundamental lack of understanding of the match. Rank where you WANT to go first.

Demonstrate leadership.  Although I didn’t participate in vet school clubs, I opened and ran a karate school for 4 years while in vet school.  I wish I had known that participating in student clubs may have helped my application more than running a non-vet-school-related organization.  I don’t think it hurt but, for the amount of time it took, it didn’t help as much as it could have.

Go to private practice.  I knew I wanted to do a residency and felt that an academic internship would position me best for this.  It’s probably true, but, in fact, I did a private practice internship which has been incredibly valuable for teaching students for the Real World.  You may need to take a more meandering route if you do a private practice internship- doing specialty internships or other roles after your internship- but it is better to stay in the system in some capacity.

Fortunately, you have the benefit of my experience as well as the entirety of human knowledge in your pocket.  Hopefully, you will make more informed decisions than I did. I have a pretty great life, so do not regret any decisions, but it would have been nice to know the consequences of my decisions when I was younger.

How to Manage Student Loans

The Vetducator - CPI vs home prices vs. tuition costs graph.

Higher education has become incredibly expensive.  There are many reasons for this, including expanding administrator numbers and salaries, declining state support, schools expanding offerings to compete for paying clients (students), and a bubble for student loans.  Regardless, you want to go to vet school (or are in vet school) and need to figure out how to pay for it.  Assuming you do not have sufficient funds on your own or from your family, you may need to borrow money. Here are some considerations and strategies to minimize the amount you have to borrow, so you can be as free as possible once you graduate.

School Choice.  You want to attend your local state school if at all possible.  Don’t go in for expensive out-of-state, out-of-country, or private schools.  This is one of the most important decisions you can make with respect to your financial future.  Attend the least expensive school you can.

Frugal Living.  I know one vet who bought a brand new car during vet school and just added it to his student loans, which totaled more than $200k by graduation.  That is unacceptable.  You need to live a frugal life- which does not mean a life devoid of all pleasures.  Believe it or not, you can have a great life without spending more than all the money you have.  And you can get a great education at a fair price.

Avoid Interest.  When it is working for you, compound interest is amazing.  However, if you are taking out a loan you have to pay back, compound interest is the worst.  You need to make sure loans you take minimize your interest as much as possible. Ideally, you should find loans which have the interest taken care of.  If you take loans which immediately begin to accumulate interest, you will be much worse off after four years in vet school. Maybe even family can give you low-interest loans.  Whatever you can do to minimize accruing interest you should do.

Is it still worth it, economically, to go to vet school?  It depends a lot on where you go to school, how you live, and what types of loans you take out.  If you go to a private school or out-of-state school, live high on the hog and take out interest-bearing loans, you could find yourself $300k in debt with poor prospects- especially if the economy turns south.  Maybe you could be just as happy doing a Ph.D. in Biochemistry?  If you insist on going to vet school, be mindful of your decisions and how they affect your future freedom.  And for god’s sake don’t buy a new car in vet school.

Making the Most of a Residency Interview

The Vetducator - residency interview image.

Your application is compelling enough for a program to spend the time interviewing you- congratulations!  Many residency programs conduct interviews, and it can be a significant variable in the decision making. Sometimes these are by phone, sometimes by video, and sometimes in person.  Obviously, you should follow the general guidelines for each of those interview types as well as prepare so you can present your best self. More specifically, here’s how to make the most of your residency interview experience.

This is not only a chance for them to learn about you but for you to learn about them.  If you get matched for a program but will be miserable, you may not finish. Every year there are residents who drop out of their long-dreamed-of specialty because the program wasn’t a good fit for them.  You need to make sure this is somewhere you can be happy for three or four years. Here are some questions to ask the program directors or existing residents to help you decide:

Both program directors and existing residents:

  • What’s it like to live here?  What do you like about it? What do you dislike about it?
  • What are the students/interns like?  What are the interaction with them and the residents?
  • What are the responsibilities of the residents?  Do they do general ER duties or call or only do specialty emergency duties?
  • What is the interaction with other specialties like?
  • What is the strategy for ensuring residents successfully complete a research project?  Are there opportunities to do more than the required project?
  • Are there opportunities or requirements to teach in lab or classroom or rounds room?  What kind of support is available to help nurture resident teaching skills?
  • If you could change anything about the program, what would it be?

Program directors:

  • What do you do to ensure resident success?
  • What are the plans for program improvements?
  • What have you learned from previous residents that has caused you to change the program?

Existing residents:

  • What have been your challenges with this program?  What did you like about it?
  • Would you have chosen this program if you knew then what you knew now?
  • What would you change about this program?

Asking incisive questions will ensure that the program knows you are serious and engaged.  What else can you do to impress them during your short interview time? Remember, their goal is to determine if you will be successful in their program.  You want to assure them you are competent, dedicated, and enthusiastic.

You need to have examples from your experience that demonstrate your best characteristics.  Are you willing to come in odd hours- tell a story during your clinical year or internship when you did and had a great time.  One of my best days in vet school was 22 hours long and started with a hemilaminectomy and ended with a GDV. The resident on duty said excitedly, “Well, what else would we be doing on a Friday night?” and I was in enthusiastic agreement.  Just saying, “Yes I work hard and I would love to be your resident” is not enough. Demonstrate you have those characteristics with stories.

Each residency program is different, but characteristics that are generally looked for include (in no particular order): curiosity, willingness to work hard and long hours (no laziness or cutting corners), detail oriented, compassionate, humble, teachable and willing to accept and use feedback/criticism, able to handle setbacks, good at managing stress, pleasant to work with/positive, ethical, good critical thinking skills, knowledgeable, effective at communication, enthusiastic, dedicated, and cooperative and helpful.

The residency interview is a difficult experience to navigate.  You need to get information to make sure you would be happy there while assuring them you would be happy there and a great catch for them in a very short amount of time.  Have a plan ahead of time. If you fumble asking questions or coming up with examples of how you’re awesome, you’re sunk. It’s a fairly high stakes experience. You spent undergrad, vet school, and maybe an internship to get here.  You can’t just hope it will work out. You must prepare.

How to Choose Your Internship

The Vetducator- screen shot of the VIRMP matching program website.

Where you got to vet school does not substantively affect your internship prospects, but the institution where you do your internship may affect your future residency prospects.  Selecting the most appropriate internship position is particularly important for those bound for residencies. For those bound for private practice, the primary goal is to avoid a bad internship.  Internship programs change in quality over time, so there is not a reliable database of bad internships. These are some variables you should keep in mind as you consider your future.

First, I am very evidence-motivated and fact-oriented, so I made a table.  This table had each program as a row, and column headings for important variables, some of which are listed below.

Specialties.  If you want to do an ophtho residency, of course you have to go somewhere which has ophthalmologists.  Otherwise, you want to have surgery and internal medicine at a bare minimum.

Number of interns.  If you are one of two interns, you may not have as many opportunities for collaboration and support in the program.  If you are part of a 28-intern mob, you may become just another faceless, poorly-paid doctor. Decide where you want to fall in this spectrum.

Amount of emergency work.  Every intern’s salary is justified by the ER work they do.  Some programs provide good backup for their interns on ER so that they learn quite a lot.  Some leave them to sink or swim. The more time you spend on ER seeing cases, the less time you may have with specialists who are focused on teaching you.  Be cautious of anything over 25% ER time.

Cost of living/Salary.  Most interns get paid poorly, but being paid poorly in Athens, GA is different than being paid poorly in Philadelphia, PA.  In Athens, you can get a decent duplex in a safe part of town. In Philadelphia, you’ll probably be longing for those self-defense courses you took in undergrad.

Reputation.  This is only relevant if you are interested in a residency.  In general, academic internships have a better reputation, mostly because their faculty are ‘plugged in’ to the post-grad system and know people at other institutions.  The reputation is not necessarily related to the actual quality of the program. If you get an internship in a small private practice with one surgeon and one internist, it may be harder to get a residency than if you get an internship at, say, the University of Tennessee.

Geography.  Most people I know ignore geography, and it’s understandable as to why.  It’s only a year- you can dig yourself out of snow every day for that short amount of time.  For a rare few, this is an important variable. For most people, though, geography is (and should be) irrelevant.

Identifying an actively bad program is a different decision tree, and requires personal contacts at a large array of institutions.  Assuming most programs aren’t bad, the characteristics listed here are the ones I think are most useful in deciding where to go. What are other variables you think are important in internship program selection?

Mastering the Internship Application Timeline

The process to make your application most competitive for an internship starts long before your senior year.  Each step along the way is important, and poor decisions can make it progressively harder to be an excellent candidate.  Here is a timeline to help you be the best internship applicant you can be.

First Year – Get involved in at least one vet school club.  Work hard so you are a shoo-in for an officer position next year.

First Summer – Participate in a summer research scholars program or equivalent professional experience.  This does not mean going back to the clinic you worked at growing up. That does not add to your CV.

Second Year – Be a leader in your club(s).  Now that you have the hang of vet school, make sure you have at least one extracurricular activity you could put on your CV in addition to the club responsibility.

Second Summer – If you didn’t do a summer research program last year, do one this year.  If you already did one, try to get some professional-adjacent experience, ideally overseas or with under-served and/or marginalized and/or low SES populations.

Choosing Rotations – This may happen in your second or third year.  See the post on maximizing your senior year for internship success when choosing rotations.

Third Year – Study study, pay attention, show up, and do the work.  These classes are often the most clinically applicable. If you can get a handle on the material now, you will be a more competent senior student.  If possible, wrap up any lingering projects from earlier in vet school- you may not have time during senior year.

Fourth Year – At the start of each rotation, let the faculty know you are interested in an internship.  If you did well, at the end of the rotation, ask if they would be willing to write a good letter of recommendation for you.

  • September – Begin working on your letter of intent and CV.  You want lots of input from mentors and friends on this- give them time to give it to you.  Begin to research prospective programs.
  • October – You should have most of your letters of recommendation requested by now.  If you have a rotation in November, you may wait for one of them. If you didn’t ask your potential letter writer at the end of the rotation, ask them now.  Do not wait. Your letter of intent and CV should be in near final form.
  • November – Make the last tweaks on your letter of intent and CV.  All of your letters of recommendation should have been requested by now.  Narrow down your list of programs to which you want to apply and rank.
  • December – Match applications are due.  After submission, some programs may want to do phone or video or even in-person interviews.
  • January – Your rank order is due and the programs submit their rank order later in the month.
  • February – Match results come out!  The Scramble happens in the event you didn’t match.  Hopefully, you have a position now and can cruise until graduation.

If you aren’t sure if you want to do an internship, that is just fine.  I advise any students who are on the fence to proceed as if they will apply for an internship.  If they decide not to, no worries. But if they did not prepare and decide they do want to apply later, it can be an uphill battle.  Start early and be prepared. Have any questions about how to prepare? Post in the comments!

Making the Most of your Internship Interview

The Vetducator - pawn chess piece left standing when all others have fallen around it.
Photo by Randy Fath on Unsplash

Internship applicants have it rough.  You are one of a faceless horde trying to get the best position.  Your letter of intent and CV help, and your letters of recommendation are crucial.  Some programs may require an interview, some may allow for one, and others are only irritated if you try to ‘interview’.  In addition to basic interview etiquette, let’s unpack the internship interview.

Scenario 1) They don’t want you to interview.  Many programs receive so many applications that they really don’t want the hassle of trying to interview any of them.  These programs may allow visitation days, but make no mistake- those days are opportunities for you to see if the program is a good fit for you, not for the program to determine if you are a good candidate.  Programs like this want to evaluate every applicant de novo. Spending time at these institutions only helps you know what you are getting in to, it does not help your candidacy.

How do you know if a program doesn’t want you to interview?  You can always ask something like, “Does an externship at your facility factor into your internship selection?”  If doing an externship does not affect their decision-making, an interview certainly won’t. If they do an intern visitation day, you can ask how important that is for their selection process.  Many academic internships do not consider your presence on their campus in any way. At UGA, we actively discouraged intern applicants from coming to visit- otherwise we would have been overrun and expended a huge amount of time for little benefit.

Scenario 2) You may interview, but it is not required.  This probably includes many private practice programs and some academic ones.  The smaller the program, the more important an interview is in their decision making.  If you do an externship or visit and spend time with the program directors, it may positively influence your application.  If this is the case, follow the guidelines on how to act on an externship.

Scenario 3) Formal interview.  Many private practices will do a phone or video interview as a standard part of the intern selection process.  These range from highly technical- “you are presented with an ADR 12-year-old GSD with anemia”- to more behavioral- “describe a situation when you had to demonstrate leadership.”  If possible, establish how long the interview is scheduled for and what you should prepare ahead of time. Follow the suggestions for in-person, video, or phone interviews as appropriate.

Internship interviews are rarely a make-or-break step.  Those programs that do interviews obviously factor them into the decision making.  Don’t worry if they don’t do an interview and don’t spend too much of your valuable senior year clinic time trying to do externships at places to impress them.  Particularly for academic internships, they probably won’t look at you any differently than other applicants. Use your time wisely.

Set Your Post-Graduate Success in Vet School

Vetducator - Mean and nice chihuahua dog.

I was chatting with a colleague the other day who mentioned a course we had just converted that semester from a graded course to a pass/fail (at 70%) course.  Apparently students had been harassing the course coordinator for a few points here and there, even though these students were already above a 70%. They couldn’t ‘pass’ any more than they had, yet they were hassling this poor embattled new assistant professor.  

My colleague asked me, “Don’t they realize they will want us to write letters of recommendation for them in a few years?  Do they think we’ll have forgotten how they made our lives unnecessarily difficult?” I’m not saying vengeance will be taken or anything of the sort.  I’m also not saying students shouldn’t ask polite questions of faculty members to improve their own understanding of a topic. But students who want an 89% instead of an 88% in a course which is pass/fail will be noticed.  And remembered.

During vet school, you want to be quietly competent.  Not invisible, but not obnoxious or difficult to work with.  As always, aim for zero. Ideally, faculty members know more or less who you are and if you are a good student.  “Good” in this context does not necessarily mean earning high grades. For a clinician educator like myself, a “good” vet student is one who tries to understand the clinical rationale for decisions and is not just memorizing data.  If you are a club officer, hopefully the faculty mentor for the club knows you and you feel comfortable talking to them.

Focus on the big picture.  I understand it’s easy to get swept along with your classmates who all want top grades, but ask what the important thing is about what you’re learning.  Is the most important thing to get good grades, or is the most important things to become a competent clinician? I distinctly remember the #1 ranked student in a class got to clinics and one of my interns wondered, “How can they be so smart and so dumb at the same time?”  They were academically gifted, but couldn’t handle clinical decision making. Don’t just memorize data. Understand concepts.

I don’t want any student to feel like they can’t talk to a faculty member and ask respectful questions intended to expand their own understanding.  But when the questions are purely to get an extra point or two, ask yourself what you’re really trying to accomplish. And consider the collateral damage you may cause.  Faculty members are, in general, fairly intelligent, with good memories. We will remember the grade grubbers. And they will not get good letters of recommendation.

Do You Want to do a Specialty Internship?

The Vetducator - Image of intern going to private practice, specialty internship, or residency.

The internship is a one-year experience.  Typically, after vet school, one does a rotating internship, where you get a wide variety of experience in medical and surgical cases.  More and more specialty internships are coming about. These are also one year long, and are focused on a specific discipline, such as anesthesia, cardiology, internal medicine, oncology, or surgery.  You’ve already done one internship, worked long hours for not much money. Why would you do another?

The specialty internship has been around for at least 20 years, and probably longer.  Programs have always had a need for semi-experienced clinicians who could do more specialized work.  Why not create a residency if that is needed? Some programs do not have enough specialists or other requirements dictated by specialty colleges to train residents.  Some institutions do not have the funding to make a 3-year residency commitment, but can make a 1-year internship commitment. In recent years, specialty internships have exploded as the applicant pool has increased.

Most people pursue a specialty internship as a stepping stone for a residency.  Through the VIRMP, you can apply to residencies and internships simultaneously. The VIRMP will first try to match you for a residency.  If you are unsuccessful, it will then try to match you in an internship if you applied to any. A specialty internship fulfills a number of useful roles for the prospective specialist:

  1. It keeps you in the system.  If you finish your internship and do not get matched for a residency, what do you do until you can apply again the next year?  You could go out into practice, but that is fraught with complications.
  2. It gives you more references.  Your references from your rotating internship are good and helpful, but getting more references, particularly from people within your discipline, can be valuable.  The supervisors for specialty internships have also seen a LOT of specialty interns, and can apply that perspective to your performance.
  3. It makes you a better clinician.  You get more experience in your chosen specialty, meaning that a residency which takes you will have a more prepared resident.  Plenty of programs still take applicants out of a rotating internship, but a specialty internship might give you a slight leg up if you need it.

There are some times when doing a specialty internship isn’t helpful, or isn’t right for you.  Some of these include:

  1. Family considerations.  Yet another year spent at a different institution with no guarantee for the future.  It can be tough if you want to settle down.
  2. Financial considerations.  Another year spent not making much money, potentially with student loans looming or, worse, gathering interest.
  3. Academic consideration.  If your vet school performance was poor, it’s possible no number of internships will make you a viable candidate for a residency.  Talk to your mentors and get their genuine appraisal of your situation. I have seen applicants pursue three specialty internships and still not get a residency.  It breaks my heart. I wish I could tell them, “This isn’t going to be your path. Find another one.”
  4. You’ve had it.  You’ve been in school long enough, and you want to have your own time and develop your own professional image.  It’s time to get out of the academic circle and into practice or a different veterinary pursuit.

The specialty internship can be a valuable, rewarding experience.  It can enhance your application and get you one step closer to a residency.  It can also delay you getting to where you want to be in life by another year (or more if you do more than one).  

You should have a very honest conversation with yourself, your loved ones, and your mentors.  How much is this path really worth to you? Could you be just as happy doing something else? I didn’t match for a surgery residency after my internship and ended up doing an anesthesia residency.  I am ecstatically happy now. Professional happiness doesn’t just happen to you- you need to make yourself happy given your circumstances. If you tell yourself, “I can only be happy if I am a surgeon”, I think you are bound to make unwise decisions.  Tread carefully.